I read their preprint[1] and they did a thorough job. They investigated a number of the things I'd suspect if I were looking for mis-reconstructed events or weird backgrounds.
So it's certainly interesting!
That said, particle physics history is full of 3 sigma particle "discoveries" that disappeared with more data. They're collecting more, so hopefully we'll learn more in a few more years.
This sort of thing is really useful for helping people to understand what the purpose of scientific publication is. It's not about presenting finished products to society, it's more like a Discord where you communicate new findings with other authors. Often the reason for a communication is because you found something weird, and you want other people to know about it so they can help you confirm or rule it out as bad data. People shouldn't feel gunshy about this. (My field even has a conference for failed results, CFAIL.) I like to highlight examples of this stuff, because I see so many angry online comments when a paper turns out to be "wrong" or doesn't replicate.
You think that people's findings should be communicated by email? that their email chains are what should go into the permanent record and be cited and printed out and included in journals and such?
would you include all the quoted text in the reply-alls, or is that too much?
Instead of reading everybody's spam or having to have a centralized body decide who gets to send messages to the mailing list, journal editors filter which things are worthy of publication and in which journal such that readers don't have to wade through garbage or uninteresting results.
Or this[2] 2007 Science paper on ultra high energy cosmic ray source candidates ("anisotropy") that we had to retract because significance started dropping almost the day the paper was approved.
It was a fascinating experience as a junior member to follow the collaboration internal conversation and investigation on this, because a lot of extremely principled scientists were clearly deeply worried about losing their hard earned reputation. In the end, I am convinced that we were simply unlucky.
Reminds me of the FTL neutrinos too, where the scientist where pretty much "hey, something is wrong, can you help us figure it out?" and the general public were the ones screaming "OMG! Physics is dead!"
Then when it comes out as measurement error, the public is all "Damn these scientists are all hype machine clowns..."
In one sense anything that passed all their background rejection is a WIMP. To interact with a nucleus through so much matter, it's not interacting electromagnetically. The main candidate for a strong force interaction would be a neutron, and they did a lot of work to model that and eliminate it as a background. So definitionally it would be a WIMP.
They were pretty model agnostic in what they were looking for. They modeled and simulated a number of different ways a WIMP could interact with normal matter. If this is a discovery, more data will be needed to figure out the nature of that interaction and how it fits into particle physics.
But there's always a chance it's something completely new, or some extremely rare manifestation of things we already know about, but have never seen before. And even if it is WIMP, it may not be the right type of WIMP (wrong mass, or wrong interaction strength) to explain cosmological dark matter.
The detector from which data is taken to do this analysis contains 7 tons of liquid xenon. It is inside of a larger detector, which contains hundreds of tons of water and more than 10 tons of a scintillator. One of the functions of that outer detector is to absorb neutrons and other infiltrates coming from the rock.
When doing this kind of thing, the analysts will plot the rate of events as a function of "distance from the outer surface" and confirm that it decreases, and in this case "is 0" inside of the detector used for analysis.
But keep in mind that all statements are made statistically, so it's not that the event _can't_ be an external neutron, but that it is _very_ unlikely to be.
They have a lot of shielding for the detector, and also if there were a significant source of neutrons they'd expect to see other evidence, both in the detector and in the separate "veto" detector that surrounds the main detector.
That's not to say it can't be a neutron, but it would be surprising if it were.
> it’s far too early to claim a discovery, physicists warn...“How do you even make sense of one event?” muses Tom Shutt, a particle astrophysicist at SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory and co-founder of the LZ project. “We just decided we should publish and think really, really, really hard about what that event could be.”
Very hard to manage jumping the gun by reporters. Sounds like they saw some new data. No idea what it is.
I think it's cool that there's still unconfirmed hypothesizes, and still unexplained phenomena in the science that's investigating these hypothesizes.
I hope this turns into a real discovery about something; but even if it's an equipment malfunction, hopefully it's a lesson that can be turned into improving the detector.
Not well informed on the topic- but the title made me think of the recently launched Roman Space Telescope.
The difference: LUX-ZEPLIN, which is underground, is waiting to detect a dark matter particle itself. On the other hand, NGRST seeks to observe the effects of dark matter.
> Such behavior could require dark matter to be more complicated than just a single new type of particle. For example, the dark matter particle might have some internal structure, like an ordinary atom, so it would only interact if hit hard enough to excite it to a higher energy internal state
I get a little shiver imagining that the dark matter might be something like ordinary atoms. Imagine that other 85% of the universe could have its own parallel atomic table, chemistry, even some kind of life utterly alien to us?
It's possible that there could be an entirely different charge mechanism that works exactly like ours but they don't interact at all; but the whole premise of dark matter is that it doesn't seem to have any self-interaction outside of gravity.
To start with, they do a lot of work to eliminate radioactive backgrounds in the materials they're using, and they put the detector deep underground to shield from cosmic rays.
Additionally, when a particle interacts with the nucleus, the ratio of how much energy ends up as scintillation light versus ionization is different than when a particle interacts with an electron, which is most of the background processes.
Then, whatever is left, they try to model using known processes. After all that, there's one event that they can't account for. And that's what the news is about.
I agree. Moreover, I'm not sure if it's the same team, but in a similar experiment while removing all the other effects, they discovered that Xenon 124 is radioactive, but the half life is super long and no one had seen it before. https://xenonexperiment.org/observing-the-rarest-decay-proce...
Yeah, it's funny, for experiments like this you spend 90% of your time modeling and subtracting noise, and 10% analyzing the signal that results. Had the same experience in X-ray astronomy. 3 years building a detailed model of all the sources of noise, then subtracting it out and finally starting on the science.
I worked a little on the Virgo interferometer, I would say about 99.9% of the work on those types of detectors is limiting and subtracting noise. ( ≧ᗜ≦)
At some level, it could be (and that would be an great discovery as well!). It's a question of probabilities: it's unlikely to be any of the things that we already know about, but that doesn't mean that it's something new. Unlikely things happen --- infrequently. As stressed in the article and elsewhere in comments, more data should elucidate what is going on. That's the difficulty of these kinds of searches: there is one event, and we can't make clear, confident statements about one event.
Based on my very amateurish skim of this and a related paper, maybe so? They simulated the neutrino background as solar and cosmic ray atmospheric sources, so any source with a different energy distribution is perhaps a possible explanation for the event, I think.
But probably more likely is for this to have been a particularly energetic event in the tail of one of the known sources of neutron recoil detection they did model. More events needed!
> If the new result is real, more signals should emerge soon. LZ researchers have already collected three times as much data as they used in the paper.
It sounds like this implies they've seen 3x more events but it seems like they would have said that if it were the case. Have they just gathered more data about the single event or is this 4 separate events they're talking about?
Detectors like this work on exposure. They're always on (except for calibration and maintenance), waiting for events to happen. This paper was written with 2.8 tonne-years of data. That is, 4.7 tonnes of liquid xenon for a little mmore than half a year. The detector has 7 tonnes, and the 4.7 number reflects cuts they made on parts of the detector that either they don't understand as well, or have higher backgrounds.
As they better understand the detector, they can use more of that mass. They have data from it, but they just didn't use it. And they're always collecting more data, too, as time passes.
So the 3x is saying they have something like 8.5 tonne-years of data.
So they have 7 tonnes of Xenon. Events detected all around in the matter, but the PMTs can localise where the event happened. So they can virtually segment parts of the detector where they are sure all the outside effects are understood and taken care of.
If this anything like CERN detectors, they get amounts of data so vast that they have to discard almost all of it to be even able to record it. Depending on heurestics you use to discard data you might be discarding what you are looking for and after adjustment will get some new interesting events, but still actually processing the candidates might take a long time.
This raises what is (I think) an interesting question. CERN is a collider, so they are _trying_ to produce lots of stuff, and they do (lots and lots of stuff). They can't write it all to disk, and most of it isn't interesting enough to try.
The work being done here falls into the category of "low background physics" --- they aren't trying to produce anything, and actually put quite a bit of effort into doing the opposite, by removing all sources of particles (e.g. sourcing materials free of radioactive contaminants, physically cleaning all surfaces and purifying all fluids involved, etc).
So the detector, if built properly, is fairly quiet, and you try to write as much data to disk as you can (e.g., if something even fairly-potentially interesting happens, you save it). Then when you analyze the data like this, you ignore the majority of what you've got --- only a teeny fraction makes it into an analysis of this caliber.
They collected x3 more hay, and they still have to processes it and try to find any needle mixed with it.
Hopefully it the new data may have 3 additional events, or perhaps 2 or perhaps 4 or perhaps 10 or perhaps... Or the reported event may be false event caused by a lucky coincidence, and they may find 0 additional events.
So it's certainly interesting!
That said, particle physics history is full of 3 sigma particle "discoveries" that disappeared with more data. They're collecting more, so hopefully we'll learn more in a few more years.
[1] https://lz.lbl.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2026/08/LZ_Pre...
would you include all the quoted text in the reply-alls, or is that too much?
It was a fascinating experience as a junior member to follow the collaboration internal conversation and investigation on this, because a lot of extremely principled scientists were clearly deeply worried about losing their hard earned reputation. In the end, I am convinced that we were simply unlucky.
[2] https://arxiv.org/pdf/0712.2843
Then when it comes out as measurement error, the public is all "Damn these scientists are all hype machine clowns..."
It's stories like this that raise my p(we are in a simulation).
They were pretty model agnostic in what they were looking for. They modeled and simulated a number of different ways a WIMP could interact with normal matter. If this is a discovery, more data will be needed to figure out the nature of that interaction and how it fits into particle physics.
But there's always a chance it's something completely new, or some extremely rare manifestation of things we already know about, but have never seen before. And even if it is WIMP, it may not be the right type of WIMP (wrong mass, or wrong interaction strength) to explain cosmological dark matter.
When doing this kind of thing, the analysts will plot the rate of events as a function of "distance from the outer surface" and confirm that it decreases, and in this case "is 0" inside of the detector used for analysis.
But keep in mind that all statements are made statistically, so it's not that the event _can't_ be an external neutron, but that it is _very_ unlikely to be.
That's not to say it can't be a neutron, but it would be surprising if it were.
Very hard to manage jumping the gun by reporters. Sounds like they saw some new data. No idea what it is.
Looking forward to the follow up.
Glad to see such things getting re-purposed instead of just sealed off and abandoned.
I hope this turns into a real discovery about something; but even if it's an equipment malfunction, hopefully it's a lesson that can be turned into improving the detector.
The difference: LUX-ZEPLIN, which is underground, is waiting to detect a dark matter particle itself. On the other hand, NGRST seeks to observe the effects of dark matter.
I get a little shiver imagining that the dark matter might be something like ordinary atoms. Imagine that other 85% of the universe could have its own parallel atomic table, chemistry, even some kind of life utterly alien to us?
Additionally, when a particle interacts with the nucleus, the ratio of how much energy ends up as scintillation light versus ionization is different than when a particle interacts with an electron, which is most of the background processes.
Then, whatever is left, they try to model using known processes. After all that, there's one event that they can't account for. And that's what the news is about.
Xe-124, half-life 1.1 * 10^22 years. That's crazy.
But probably more likely is for this to have been a particularly energetic event in the tail of one of the known sources of neutron recoil detection they did model. More events needed!
It sounds like this implies they've seen 3x more events but it seems like they would have said that if it were the case. Have they just gathered more data about the single event or is this 4 separate events they're talking about?
As they better understand the detector, they can use more of that mass. They have data from it, but they just didn't use it. And they're always collecting more data, too, as time passes.
So the 3x is saying they have something like 8.5 tonne-years of data.
The work being done here falls into the category of "low background physics" --- they aren't trying to produce anything, and actually put quite a bit of effort into doing the opposite, by removing all sources of particles (e.g. sourcing materials free of radioactive contaminants, physically cleaning all surfaces and purifying all fluids involved, etc).
So the detector, if built properly, is fairly quiet, and you try to write as much data to disk as you can (e.g., if something even fairly-potentially interesting happens, you save it). Then when you analyze the data like this, you ignore the majority of what you've got --- only a teeny fraction makes it into an analysis of this caliber.
Hopefully it the new data may have 3 additional events, or perhaps 2 or perhaps 4 or perhaps 10 or perhaps... Or the reported event may be false event caused by a lucky coincidence, and they may find 0 additional events.